Debbie Hodges (Samoyed and King Charles dogs) wins the award for using the website first--I really like communicating this way and think it can be really helpful for the class going well. Everyone please continue to post comments under the post below this one asking for general quesitons and comments. Comment here for thoughts, questions and experience relevant to Debbie's question and my thoughts as recorded below.
Debbie had an interesting question. She says: "Ruby (the King Charles) has the back up going no problem, Princess (the Samoyed) doesn't have a clue. Could I "invade her space" a little to get her to back up and then click? I bet I would only have to do it a few times and she would get the idea. What do you think?"
Stepping into her to get a few backs initially and C/T (click and treat) those steps back would certainly probably work to get things going. But I am going to suggest, especially for an experienced trainer like Debbie, that she remain patient with the shaping and allow her dog to figure it out one bit at a time. I say this because of the skill building and "clicker thinking" that would go into it for both Debbie and Princess. I can't imagine shaping not working for this behavior. Brenda says it is one of the behaviors she would always choose to shape (maybe she will say why).
What happens when you try it with Princess? Does she stand still waiting? Does she have considerable training in non-clicker methods--waiting is a common crossover dog behavior that needs to be worked through. I would say be sure to get the smallest approximation possible. For dogs that hold still, I would start with clicking any movement at all 3,5, 10 times. Then look for any paw movement (C/T that for a bit) , then look for that back movement however slight (C/T that for bit). Build to a full step back and keep building from there. I focus on back feet just so I can notice it better and see the slightest back movement of those feet. Try to click while the movement is happening not after she stops. Also sometimes it helps to throw the treat behind the dog. Overall, get her offering behaviors when shaping and the back will have to work--she is bound to at least accidentally give some back movement if she is active!
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3 comments:
Hi Class, Brenda Zielinski here
I just wanted to talk a little about the dog that's hard to get to offer the behavior. I have a very hard to shape dog.I found with the backup if I toss a treat between my feet, he goes to get it then backs up to look up at me again and I can click that step. It got things started and now he can do it without the cookie starting between my feet. Jim is this a valid way of starting, keeping the idea of shaping or is it cheating?
Brenda
Yes, it is "cheating" but again, there is nothing wrong with that even from a clicker perpsective as long as you only do a few times to get an initial reinforced behavior ro 3 or 4 in. Then back away from help. However, just as with Deb's wanting to walk into the dog---I think the dog will offer behaviors if you teach it to offer as per my post. Once offering, then you won't have to help because paw movement will happen. As long as you help, then dog may not learn to offer. So it is always a balance. I just want all the dogs to learn to be "offerers"--one way to do that is to click for any movement as a first step when shaping.
Hi class,Jim,
I know a lot of dogs that can't move unless their owner moves to take space from them. I use the technique of moving into them later so we can back together but I'm finding the dogs who learn to back via shaping first will be able to back in many different context, and very quickly at large distances. Dogs taught to move due to taking space or leash help won't understand the command/cue if you all the sudden go a lot farther away. You end up having to move in tiny increments. So did they really understand what they were doing up close if they can't do it far away? With shaping the dog seems to retain how to do something even if the context changes.
Brenda
Hi everyone!
I am enjoying the clicker class with my puppy Wit. He will be the first dog I have started using clicker methods and I am eager to see how he progresses with his training. Everything is going well at this point even with his very short puppy attention span! I have delayed clicking the backup with Wit as he seems to be at an age where he is a bit standoffish and I am trying to have him draw nearer to me. I do plan to start to click the backup behavior in another week or so. I am enjoying working with Jim and Melissa again; you are both great instructors! It's very fun to see all the dogs learning new behaviors and Jim's dogs are very inspiring! Looking forward to seeing everyone at the next class!
Sue
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